We would now like to call upon Mr. Philip Goldman and Mr. John Gittinger.
Mr. Goldman and Mr. Gittinger, will you please rise and take the oath.
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give is the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you, God?
Mr. GOLDMAN. I do.
Mr. GITTINGER. I do.
Senator INOUYE. Thank you, sir.
Mr. Goldman, will you identify yourself, and after that, Mr. Gittinger.
Senator KENNEDY. Before we start in, we had a third witness, Mr. Chairman, Mr. Pasternac, who planned to testify, traveled to Washington -- he, lives in Washington, and was contacted recently --with the intention of testifying this morning. And something -- he called us late this morning and indicated that he wanted to get a counsel before he would wish to testify.
Senator INOUYE. Mr. Goldman.
Mr. Goldman, will you identify yourself, sir.
Testimony of Philip Goldman, Former Employee, Central Intelligence Agency
Mr. GOLDMAN. I am Philip Goldman.
Senator INOUYE. And you are a former employee of the Central Intelligence Agency?
Mr. GOLDMAN. Over 10 years ago.
Senator INOUYE. And you were employed at the time when MKULTRA was in operation?
Mr. GOLDMAN. There were some MKULTRA's in operation at the time I was there.
Senator INOUYE. And Mr. John Gittinger, are you a former employee of the Central Intelligence Agency?
Testimony of John Gittinger, Former Employee, Central Intelligence Agency
Mr. GITTINGER. I am.
Senator INOUYE. Are you still an employee?
Mr. GITTINGER. No.
Senator INOUYE. Were you a member of the Agency at the time MKULTRA was in operation?
Mr. GITTINGER. Yes.
Senator INOUYE. Thank you. Senator Kennedy.
Senator KENNEDY. I want to welcome both of you to the committee. If we could start with Mr. Goldman. Were you the project engineer for the safe houses in either San Francisco or New York?
Mr. GOLDMAN. I know of no safe house in San Francisco.
Senator KENNEDY. How about in New York?
Mr. GOLDMAN. I knew of one facility that was established there, but I didn't know anything of its operation.
Senator KENNEDY. Were you a monitor on any testing of drugs on unwitting persons in San Francisco?
Mr. GOLDMAN. No.
Senator KENNEDY. Well, we have a classified document here that was provided by the Agency that lists your name as a monitor of the program and I would appreciate it if you would look--
Mr. GOLDMAN. I think the misunderstanding arises because I was project officer.
Senator KENNEDY. Well, would you take a look at that?
[Mr. Goldman inspected the document.]
Mr. GOLDMAN. This document as it states is correct. However, my--
Senator KENNEDY. That document is correct?
Mr. GOLDMAN. As far as I see on the first page, the project. But my--
Senator KENNEDY. Well, could I get it back, please.
That would indicate that you were a monitor of the program.
Mr. GOLDMAN. I was in charge of disbursing the moneys to Morgan Hall.
Senator KENNEDY. To whom was that?
Mr. GOLDMAN. To the individual whose name was listed at the top of that document.
Senator KENNEDY. And you knew that he was running the project in San Francisco?
Mr. GOLDMAN. I knew he was the person who was in charge out there.
Senator KENNEDY. All right.
Mr. GOLDMAN. But I had no knowledge nor did I seek knowledge of actually what he was doing, because there would be other things involved.
I did receive--
Senator KENNEDY. What were you doing?
Mr. GOLDMAN. I was collecting -- I had to be sure that all the receipts that ever were turned in balanced with the moneys that were paid out to see that everything was run all right. There was no illegal use of funds as far as we could determine by the receipts and cash.
Senator KENNEDY. So even though the Agency document indicates that you were a monitor for the program, one of the few monitors of that particular program which you mentioned for San Francisco and Mill Valley, Calif., you described your responsibility only as a carrier of money, is that correct?
Mr. GOLDMAN. I would say as a disburser or carrying out -- seeing that the moneys were handled properly. There was within that -- I don't know what's done or what he did do in conjunction with other people.
Senator KENNEDY. Were you responsible for the disbursement of all the funds?
Mr. GOLDMAN. I was responsible for turning over the check to him.
Senator KENNEDY. And what did you know of the program itself?
Mr. GOLDMAN. The only thing I knew of the program was what he furnished us in terms of receipts and that sort of thing. I didn't indulge or concern myself in that.
Senator KENNEDY. You still wrote, and I'll let you examine it -- it's a classified document -- but you wrote a rather substantive review of the program in May of 1963, talking about the experiments, the factual data that had been collected, covert and realistic field trials, about the necessity of those particular -- and talked about the effectiveness of the various programs, the efficiency of various delivery systems. That doesn't sound to me like someone who is only--
Mr. GOLDMAN. Well, if you would refresh my memory, if I could read this I would certainly agree with whatever is said there, if it was written.
Senator KENNEDY. I am trying to gather what your role was. You've indicated first of all that you didn't know about -- you knew about a safe house in New York; now we find out that you're the carrier for the resources as well and the agent in San Francisco. We find out now that the CIA put you as a monitor. You're testifying that you only were the courier, and here we have just one document, and there are many others that talk about the substance of that program with your name on it and I am just trying to find out exactly what role you were playing.
Mr. GOLDMAN. The only thing I can tell you about this and I am drawing completely on my memory is that this individual who was in charge out there conducted these things and reported them back to the Agency. I didn't participate in any of them. All I know was that he furnished me with receipts for things that were done and told of the work that they had done.
Senator KENNEDY. Well, that document covers more than receipts.
Mr. GOLDMAN. Yes, it tells of what -- they had conducted work out there.
Senator KENNEDY. It describes, does it not? Read the paragraph 2.
Mr. GOLDMAN. "A number of covert"--
Senator KENNEDY. Well, you can't read it, it's a classified document, and I don't know why, quite frankly, but it relates to the substance of those programs and your name is signed to the memorandums on it. I am not interested in you trying to review for us now what is in the document, but I think it would be unfortunate if we were left with the opinion that all you were was a courier of resources when we see a document with your name on it, signed, that talks about the substance of the program. And what we're interested in is the substance of the program. We have the recent documents that were provided by the Agency, which do indicate that you were at least involved in the substance, and I'm just trying to find out whether you're willing to tell us about that.
Mr. GOLDMAN. I am perfectly willing to tell you everything that I can remember.
Senator KENNEDY. But you can't remember anything.
Mr. GOLDMAN. I can't remember the substantive parts of these, things, I really can't.
Senator KENNEDY. Of the program that was taking place.
Do you have any greater familiarity with what was happening in New York?
Mr. GOLDMAN. No, no.
Senator KENNEDY. And you have the same function with regards to New York?
Mr. GOLDMAN. The same function with regard to New York.
Senator KENNEDY. Did you ever go to San Francisco?
Mr. GOLDMAN. Yes.
Senator KENNEDY. Did you meet with the agent in charge?
Mr. GOLDMAN. Yes.
Senator KENNEDY. And why did you meet with him?
Mr. GOLDMAN. To discuss some of the receipts and things that were there to find out if these were indeed true expenditures and to find out if everything was going along all right for the work that was being done.
Senator KENNEDY. What work was being done?
Mr. GOLDMAN. No, the reports of these things and whatever was being done. I don't know who he reported to but he did report to somebody.
Senator KENNEDY. You travel out there to find out about the work that's being done, and what does he tell you, that the work is being done well and--
Mr. GOLDMAN. He told me that the work that they were doing was going along, progressing satisfactorily, but to be very frank with you--
Senator KENNEDY. But he didn't tell you what the work was?
Mr. GOLDMAN. To be very frank with you, Senator, I cannot remember the things that happened back in those days. I've been away from the company -- from the Agency for over 10 years, and that is even farther back than that, and that was just about the time when I first engaged in this, so it was my first--
Senator KENNEDY. Did they disburse a series of 0 checks, to your recollection?
Mr. GOLDMAN. I don't recollect it, but if you have it there, then they did.
Senator KENNEDY. Did you know Dr. Gottlieb?
Mr. GOLDMAN. Yes.
Senator KENNEDY. How did you know Dr. Gottlieb?
Mr. GOLDMAN. He had been head of the division when I was recruited.
Senator KENNEDY. Did you talk to him about these programs? Did you have anything to do with him during this period of time?
Mr. GOLDMAN. I didn't have anything to do with him until I would say probably in the sixties.
Senator KENNEDY. And can you tell us what you had to do with him then?
Mr. GOLDMAN. Just what you see there, on the papers.
Senator KENNEDY. Well, that is the request for the money and he approves it.
Mr. GOLDMAN. That is the request for money and he approves it, and I am quite sure that I probably discussed with him whether the work was going along all right, whether his reports were being turned in, and whether he was satisfied with the way things were going and did he have any complaints about the way other people were requesting him, but I did not engage myself in anything he was doing.
Senator KENNEDY. Well, did you get the impression that Gottlieb knew what was going on?
Mr. GOLDMAN. I didn't ask.
Senator KENNEDY. But you told him that your impression that what was going on even though you didn't know what was going on, was going on well, I guess? [Laughter.]
Mr. GOLDMAN. I told Gottlieb what you saw in there was that the things appeared to be going along all right. I was repeating and parroting back the words that were given to me while I was there.
Senator KENNEDY. What was the money being spent for, do you know?
Mr. GOLDMAN. No; I can't recall that, sir.
Senator KENNEDY. Would you remember if we told you it was red curtains and can-can pictures--
Mr. GOLDMAN. No, sir.
Senator KENNEDY. Floral pictures and the rest.
Mr. GOLDMAN. No, sir.
Senator KENNEDY. Recorders.
Mr. GOLDMAN. No, sir.
Senator KENNEDY. Recorders and two-way mirrors.
Mr. GOLDMAN. Wait, hold on. You're slipping a word in there now.
Senator KENNEDY. But you would have authorized those funds, would you not, since you were the--
Mr. GOLDMAN. Did you say two-way mirrors?
Senator KENNEDY. Yes.
Mr. GOLDMAN. Where?
Senator KENNEDY. In the safe houses.
Mr. GOLDMAN. Where?
Senator KENNEDY. San Francisco.
Mr. GOLDMAN. No.
Senator KENNEDY. How about New York?
Mr. GOLDMAN. Yes.
Senator KENNEDY. You remember now that you approved expenditures for New York?
Mr. GOLDMAN. Yes.
Senator KENNEDY. What were those expenditures for?
Mr. GOLDMAN. That was a transfer of money over for the use in an apartment in New York by the Bureau of Narcotics. It was for their use.
Senator KENNEDY. Do you have any knowledge of what was going on in the apartment?
Mr. GOLDMAN. No, sir, other than I know that it had been used, according to the information that I have been given, it was used by the Bureau of Narcotics to make meetings with individuals who they were interested in with regard to pushing dope -- not pushing dope, but selling narcotics and that sort of thing.
Senator KENNEDY. Well, I am sure you had many responsibilities and it's a long time ago, but the Agency does indicate that you were project monitor for that particular program.
Mr. GOLDMAN. That's correct.
Senator KENNEDY. Your own testimony indicates you went out to review the expenditures of funds to find out whether they were being wisely used, that you came back and talked to the project director, Mr. Gottlieb, to give him a progress report about what was going on out there.
Mr. GOLDMAN. Yes, sir, I did.
Senator KENNEDY. All those things are true, and yet you draw a complete blank in terms of what was the project itself. That's where the record is now.
Mr. GOLDMAN. I did not go out there to review the projects nor did I come back and talk with Mr. Gottlieb and review what I had observed in terms of any projects that they -- that is, other parts of the Agency might have in operation there. I simply reported back those things which were told to me by the individual out there who -- and I carried them back and they -- are contained in the report that you have in front of you, word for word, just as it was given to me.
Senator KENNEDY. The report that you examined here is a substantive report on the particular program and project. And I don't think anyone who wasn't familiar with the project -- this is a personal evaluation -- could write a report on the substance of it without knowing about it. Now, that's mine. Maybe you can't remember and recollect, and that's--
Mr. GOLDMAN. No; everything I put down in there is things that I was told while I was out there, and if there was any ancillary information involved in there I can tell you I just don't remember that. I really don't.
At the time -- that was some years ago. At the time -- a lot of time has passed since then and I have made quite sure that if I could recollect it at all, I would do it. If you have some papers and you want me to certify whether yes, this is so or that is so, I can do that, but I can't recall it mentally.
Senator KENNEDY. You just certified the principal. There are others up here.
I would like to go to Dr. Gittinger.
Mr. GITTINGER. It's Mr. Gittinger.
Senator KENNEDY. How long did you serve with the Agency?
Mr. GITTINGER. Twenty-six years.
Senator KENNEDY. Excuse me?
Mr. GITTINGER. Twenty-six years.
Senator KENNEDY. Twenty-six years.
And at some point you moved into the operational support side, is that correct?
Mr. GITTINGER. Yes.
Senator KENNEDY. And did you know Sidney Gottlieb?
Mr. GITTINGER. Yes, sir.
Senator KENNEDY. And did he inform you about the research projects involving LSD?
Mr. GITTINGER. Yes, sir.
Senator KENNEDY. It is my understanding that you were also aware of some of the drug testing projects conducted on unwitting subjects on the west coast using the Bureau of Narcotics people in the operation. Is that true?
Mr. GITTINGER. I was.
Senator INOUYE. Excuse me. Would you speak into the microphone? I cannot hear you.
Mr. GITTINGER. Sorry.
Senator KENNEDY. Do you know which drugs were involved in those tests?
Mr. GITTINGER. LSD. And I can't remember for sure much of the others. What is the substance of marihuana, cannabis, is that right, that can be delivered by other than smoking?
Senator KENNEDY. Cannabis?
Mr. GITTINGER. There had been some discussion of that; yes.
Senator KENNEDY. And was heroin also used?
Mr. GITTINGER. Heroin used by CIA?
Senator KENNEDY. No. In the west coast operation.
Mr. GITTINGER. Absolutely not.
Senator KENNEDY. Now, to your knowledge, how were the drugs administered to the unwitting subjects?
Mr. GITTINGER. I have no direct knowledge.
Senator KENNEDY. Why did you go to the safe houses?
Mr. GITTINGER. It's a very complicated story. Just in justification of myself, this came up just, day before yesterday. I have not really had enough time to get it all straightened in my mind, so I ramble.
Senator KENNEDY. Well, you take your time and tell us in your own words. We've got some time here.
Mr. GITTINGER. My responsibilities which would involve any of the period of time that you were talking about really was not directly related to drugs at all. I was a psychologist charged with the responsibility of trying to develop as much information as I could on various cultures, overseas cultures, anthropological type data, if you follow what I mean. I was also engaged in trying to work out ways and means of assessing people and understanding people.
I originally became involved in this through working on Chinese culture, and over a series of time I was introduced to the problem of brainwashing, which is the thing that really was the most compelling thing in relationship to this, and became charged with the responsibility of trying to find out a little bit about interrogation techniques.
And among other things, we decided or I decided that one of the best sources of interrogation techniques would be trying to locate and interview and become involved with experienced police interrogators in the country and experienced people who had real practical knowledge of interrogation. The reason for this is that we had become pretty well convinced after the experience of the brainwashing problems coming out of China, that it was the techniques of the interrogators that were causing the individuals to make confessions and so forth in relationship to this, rather than any kind of drugging and so forth. So we were very much interested in interrogation techniques, and this led to me being introduced to the agent in the west coast, and I began to talk to him in connection with these interrogation techniques.
Senator KENNEDY. OK. Now, that is the agent that ran the tests on the west coast on the unwitting people. That's where you come in, correct?
Mr. GITTINGER. If I understand -- would you say that again?
Senator KENNEDY. The name Morgan Hall has been -- that is the name that has been used.
Mr. GITTINGER. Yes.
Senator KENNEDY. And that is the agent that you met with.
Mr. GITTINGER. That is right.
Senator KENNEDY. And you met at the safe house.
Mr. GITTINGER. Yes, sir.
Senator KENNEDY. Whom did you meet with in the safe house?
Mr. GITTINGER. This is the part that is hard for me to say, and I am sorry that I have to. In connection with some work that we were doing, we needed to have some information on sexual habits. Morgan Hall provided informants for me, to talk to in connection with the sex habits that I was interested in trying to find information. During one period of time the safe house, as far as I was concerned, was used for just these particular type of interviews. And I didn't see the red curtains.
Senator KENNEDY. Those were prostitutes, were they?
Mr. GITTINGER. Yes, sir.
Senator KENNEDY. How many different times were you there that you had similar--
Mr. GITTINGER. I couldn't possibly say with any certainty on that. Four or five times.
Senator KENNEDY. Four or five times.
Mr. GITTINGER. Over -- you remember now, the period that I'm talking about when I would have any involvement in this is from about 1956 to 1961. So it's about a 4- or 5-year period which is the only time that I know anything about what you are talking about here today.
Senator KENNEDY. Did Morgan Hall make the arrangements for the prostitutes to meet with you?
Mr. GITTINGER. Yes, sir.
Senator KENNEDY. Did the interviews that you had have anything to do with drugs?
Mr. GITTINGER. Well, as I tried to explain earlier when this was being discussed a little bit beforehand, again I think it is pretty hard for most people now to recognize how little there was known about drugs at the period of time that we are talking about, because the drug age or the drug culture comes later on. Consequently, those of us who had any responsibility in this area were interested in trying to get as much information as we could on the subculture, the subculture drug groups, and obviously the Bureau of Narcotics represented a means of doing this. Consequently, other types of things that were involved in discussions at that time would have to do with the underground use of drugs. When I am talking about this I am talking about the folkways in terms of unwitting use of drugs. Did these people that I was talking to have any information about this and on rare instances they were able to tell me about their use, and in most cases this would largely turn out to be a Mickey Finn or something of that sort rather than anything esoteric.
I also was very much interested because we had relatively little information, believe it or not, at that time, in terms of the various reactions that people were having to drugs. Therefore, these people were very informative in terms of they knew a great deal of information about reactions.
Senator KENNEDY. At least you gathered -- or am I correct in assuming that you gathered the impression that the prostitutes that you had talked to were able to slip the drugs to people as I understand it. Did you form any impression on that?
Mr. GITTINGER. I certainly did not form the impression that, they did this as a rule or--
Senator KENNEDY. But they bad the knowledge.
Mr. GITTINGER. They had the knowledge or some of them had had knowledge of this being done. But again, as it turned out, it was largely in this area of knockout drops.
Senator KENNEDY. Looking back now did you form any impression about how the Agency was actually testing the broad spectrum of social classes in these safe houses? With the large disbursal of cash in small quantities, 0 bills and the kinds of elaborate decorations and two-way mirrors in the bedrooms and all the rest, is there any question in your own mind what was going on in the safe houses, or the techniques that were being used to administer these drugs?
Mr. GITTINGER. I find it very difficult to answer that question, sir. I had absolutely no direct knowledge there was a large number of this. I had no knowledge that anyone other than -- than Morgan Hall was in any way involved in the unwitting administration of drugs.
Senator KENNEDY. But Gottlieb would know, would he not?
Mr. GITTINGER. I believe so, yes, sir.
Senator KENNEDY. Could we go into the Human Ecology Foundation and talk about that and how it was used as an instrument in terms of the support of research?
Mr. GITTINGER. Yes, sir.
Senator KENNEDY. Could you describe it to us? Could you describe the Human Ecology Foundation, how it functioned and how it worked?
Mr. GITTINGER. May I tell something about how it evolved, which I think is important?
Senator KENNEDY. Sure.
Mr. GITTINGER. The Society for the Investigation of Human Ecology, so-called, was actually a -- I am confused here now as to whether I should name you names.
Senator KENNEDY. Well, we're not interested in names or institutions, so we prefer that you do not. That has to be worked out in arrangements between Admiral Turner and the individuals and the institutions.
But we're interested in what the Foundation really was and how it functioned and what its purpose was.
Mr. GITTINGER. Well, it was established to undertake research in the general area of the behavioral sciences. It definitely had almost no focus or interest in, say, drug-related type of activities except in a very minor way, because it was largely set up to attempt to gain a certain amount of information and to fund projects which were psychological, sociological, anthropological in character. It was established in the sense of a period of time that a lot of us who are in it wish we could do it over again, but we were interested in trying to get together a panel of the most representative high-level behavioral scientists we could to oversee and help in terms of developing the Society for the Investigation of Human Ecology type of program.
The Agency in effect provided the money. They did not direct the projects. Now, the fact of the matter is, there are a lot of innocent people who received the Society for the Investigation of Human Ecology money which I know for a fact they were never asked to do anything for the CIA but they did get through this indirectly. They had no knowledge that they were getting CIA money.
Senator KENNEDY. Over what period of time did this take place?
Mr. GITTINGER. As far as I was concerned , it was the period of time ending in 1961. 1 believe the Human Ecology fund finally phased out in 1965, but I was not involved in this phasing out.
Senator KENNEDY. Can you give the range of the different sort of individual projects of the universities in which it was active?
Mr. GITTINGER. Well, it would have as many as -- I am very fuzzy on my memory on the number of projects. It is over 10, 20, 30.
Senator KENNEDY. After it made the grants, what was the relationship of the Agency with the results of the studies? The Foundation acquired the money to make the grants from the Agency, and then it made the grants to these various research programs.
Mr. GITTINGER. Yes, sir.
Senator KENNEDY. And that included eight universities as well as individual researchers?
Mr. GITTINGER. Yes, sir.
Senator KENNEDY. Then what follow-up was there to that, sir?
Mr. GITTINGER. Well, in every sense of the word, the organization was run exactly like any other foundation, and it carried with it the same thing in terms of making certain that the people that they had given money to used it for the purpose for which it had been granted, that they had access to any of the reports that they had put out, but there were no strings attached to anybody. There wasn't any reason they couldn't publish anything that they put out.
Senator KENNEDY. What, sort of budget are we talking about here?
Mr. GITTINGER. I honestly do not remember. I would guess we are talking in the realm of about 0,000 a year, but don't hold me to that, because I don't know.
Senator KENNEDY. What is your view about such funding as a professional person, in terms of compromising the integrity of a university, sir?
Mr. GITTINGER. Well, obviously, sir, insofar as today there is no question about it. I will have to say at the time that we were doing this there was quite an entirely different kind of an attitude, and I do know for a fact that we moved to start towards phasing out the Society for the Investigation of Human Ecology and the Human Ecology Fund for the very reason that we were beginning to recognize that it was moving into an area but this would be compromised.
Senator KENNEDY. Well, that is commendable, both your attitude and the reasons for it, but during that period of time it still was involved in behavior research programs, as I understand it.
Mr. GITTINGER. Yes, sir. On its own, in connection with this, it participated again, and these again were not CIA-directed projects, but these were all things which would theoretically contribute to the general knowledge at the time where the things like the study of the Hungarian refugees -- obviously, the study of the Hungarian refugees who came to this country after the Hungarian revolt was a very useful exercise to try to get information about the personality characteristics of the Communists and so forth.
Senator KENNEDY. Were there other foundations that were doing similar kinds of work?
Mr. GITTINGER. Not to my knowledge, sir.
Senator KENNEDY. You believe--
Mr. GITTINGER. You mean, CIA, other CIA?
Senator KENNEDY. Right.
Mr. GITTINGER. Well, my answer is in the sense that I know of no other CIA foundations, no. There were, of course, other foundations doing similar kinds of work in the United States.
Senator KENNEDY. Have you heard of the Psychological Assessments Foundation?
Mr. GITTINGER. I certainly have.
Senator KENNEDY. What was that? What function did that have?
Mr. GITTINGER. Now, this was bringing us up to a different era. I believe the functions of that organization have nothing whatsoever to do with the things that are being talked about here while I was associated with it.
Senator KENNEDY. Rather than getting into the work, it was another foundation, was it not? It was another foundation supported by the Agency?
Mr. GITTINGER. What, the Psychological Assessment?
Senator KENNEDY. Yes.
Mr. GITTINGER. No, sir, it was not.
Senator KENNEDY. It did not get any support at all from the Agency?
Mr. GITTINGER. Oh, yes, sir. It did get support, but it was a business firm.
Senator KENNEDY. It was a business but it got support from the Agency?
Mr. GITTINGER. It got money from it, but it definitely was not in MKULTRA or in any way associated with this.
Senator KENNEDY. All right. I want to thank you for your helpful testimony, Mr. Gittinger. It is not easy to go back into the past. I think you have been very fair in your characterizations, and I think it is quite appropriately indicated that there are different standards now from what they were 25 years ago, and I think you have responded very fairly and completely to the inquiries, and I think with a good deal of feeling about it.
You are a person who is obviously attempting to serve the country's interest, so I want to thank you very much for your statement and for your helpful timeliness.
Mr. GITTINGER. Thank you, sir.
Senator INOUYE. Senator Case?
Senator CASE. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I am sorry that I had another committee that I had to complete the hearing with this morning before I got here.
I shall read the testimony with very great interest, and I appreciate your testimony as I have heard it. I would like to comment just on one point, and that is, it relates to a story in the press yesterday about part of this program involving the funding of a grant at a foreign university. I would like to elicit from you a comment as to the additional sensitivity and difficulty that that practice involves from your standpoint as a scientist, as well as a citizen, if you will.
Mr. GITTINGER. I will say it was after the fact thinking. It was utter stupidity the way things worked out to have used some of this money outside the United States when it was CIA money. I can categorically state to my knowledge, and I don't claim a complete knowledge all the way across of the human ecology functions, but to my knowledge, and this is unfortunate, those people did not know that they were getting money from CIA, and they were not asked to contribute anything to CIA as such.
Senator CASE. It would be interesting to try to examine this by turning the thing around and thinking what we would think if this happened from a foreign official agency to our own university. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Senator INOUYE. Senator Schweiker.
Senator SCHWEIKER. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Dr. Goldman, I wonder if you would tell us what your training and educational background is?
Dr. GOLDMAN. I have already given a biography for the record.
Senator SCHWEIKER. I have not seen it. Who has it? Is it classified? We may have it for the record, but may I ask you to briefly describe your training and background for us now? I hope it is no secret.
Dr. GOLDMAN. Well, I was told if I was asked this to say that. I was told that by your staff people, but I have no objection to telling you. I am a resident from Pennsylvania, southwest Pennsylvania, Lancaster County. I went to Penn State, and I am in nutrition.
Senator SCHWEIKER. In what?
Dr. GOLDMAN. Nutrition.
Senator SCHWEIKER. Were you in charge of a section or segment of the CIA in your past capacity?
Dr. GOLDMAN. During the time I was with that organization, I was in charge of one small section of it, one small segment of it; yes.
Senator SCHWEIKER. What was the function or purpose of that section that you headed?
Dr. GOLDMAN. To provide support for the other parts of the division.
Senator SCHWEIKER. Where in the chain of command would that put you in relation to Dr. Gottlieb?
Dr. GOLDMAN. Pretty far down the line.
Senator SCHWEIKER. Mr. Gittinger, I would just like to ask you a few questions. We appreciate your frankness and candor with the committee, and we realize this is a very difficult area to go into. I am not quite clear on two matters that were raised earlier. First, were the safe houses we were talking about here used on occasion by the prostitutes you referred to?
Mr. GITTINGER. I really have not the slightest idea.
Senator SCHWEIKER. Were the prostitutes used in any way to slip the customers drugs for observation purposes?
Mr. GITTINGER. Not to my direct knowledge.
Senator SCHWEIKER. Would you have been in a position to know the answer to either of these questions?
Mr. GITTINGER. May I say, probably not, and may I make an aside to explain a little bit of this, please, sir?
Senator SCHWEIKER. Mr. Gittinger, a moment ago you mentioned brainwashing techniques, as one area that you had, I guess, done some work in. How would you characterize the state of the art of brainwashing today? Who has the most expertise in this field, and who is or is not doing it in terms of other governments?
During the Korean war there was a lot of serious discussion about brainwashing techniques being used by the North Koreans, and I am interested in finding out what the state of the art is today, as you see it.
Mr. GITTINGER. Well, of course, there, has been a great deal of work on this, and there is still a great deal of controversy. I can tell you that as far as I knew, by 1961, 1962, it was at least proven to my satisfaction that brainwashing, so called, is some kind of an esoteric device where drugs or mind- altering kinds of conditions and so forth were used, did not exist even though "The Manchurian Candidate" as a Movie really set us back a long time, because it made something impossible look plausible. Do you follow what I mean? But by 1962 and 1963, the general idea that we were able to come up with is that brainwashing was largely a process of isolating a human being, keeping him out of contact, putting him under long stress in relationship to interviewing and interrogation, and that they could produce any change that way without having to resort to any kind of esoteric means.
Senator SCHWEIKER. Are there ways that we can ascertain this from a distance when we see a captive prisoner either go on television, in a photograph, or at a press conference? In other words, are there certain signs that you have learned to recognize from your technical background, to tell when brainwashing has occurred? Or is that very difficult to do?
Mr. GITTINGER. It is difficult to do. I think it is possible now in terms of looking at a picture of somebody who has been in enemy hands for a long period of time. We can get some pretty good ideas of what kind of circumstances he has been under, if that is what you mean.
Senator SCHWEIKER. That is all I have, Mr. Chairman. Thank you.
Senator INOUYE. Thank you very much.
Before adjourning the hearings, I would like to have the record show that Dr. Goldman and Mr. Gittinger have voluntarily cooperated with the committee in staff interviews, that they appear this morning voluntarily, and they are not under subpoena.
Gentlemen, I realize that this experience may have been an unhappy one and possibly a painful one. Therefore, we thank you very much for participating this morning. We also realize that the circumstances of that time differed very much from this day, and possibly the national attitude, the national political attitude condoned this type of activity. So, we have not asked you to come here as persons who have committed crimes, but rather in hope that you can assist us in studying this problem so that it will not occur once again. In that spirit we thank you for your participation, and we look forward to working with you further in this case.
Thank you very much.
Senator KENNEDY. Mr. Chairman, I would like also to thank the witnesses. These are difficult matters, and I think all of us are very grateful.
Senator SCHWEIKER. I think the witnesses should know that though it may not always seem that way, what we are trying to do is to probe the past and look at the policies of the past to affect the future. I think our emphasis really is on the future, not the past, but it is important that we learn from the past as we formulate policies and legislation for the future, I hope that all of the witnesses who did come before us voluntarily this morning, including Admiral Turner respect the fact that we are questioning the past to learn about the future. I think it should be looked at in that light.
Senator KENNEDY. I think that is the spirit in which we have had these hearings. It seems to me that from both these witnesses and others, Gottlieb knows the information and can best respond, and we are going to make every effort in the Senate Health Committee to get Mr. Gottlieb to appear, and we obviously look forward to cooperating with Senator Inouye and the other members of the committee in getting the final chapter written on this, but we want to thank you very much for your appearance here.
Senator INOUYE. The hearing will stand in recess, subject to the call of the Chair.
[Whereupon, at 12:12 p.m., the hearing was recessed, subject to the call of the Chair.]
